MFSteam
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The Big Restoration QuestionMany of you know my thought on Restoration so I am not going into all that again. What has come to mind recently due to a recent and unnecessary repaint (in my mind) is how restoration is thought of in different collecting circles.
Lets take toy steam as a start. Many consider a total repaint and a complete polish as a acceptable way of caring for and displaying engines. Some even think that it is a way of increasing their value. Indeed shiny engines do tend to fetch more on ebay.
A similar approach can be can be said to be true for vintage vehicles, and I would agree here.
Ceramic collectors frown on any sort of restoration
Scientific instrument collectors dust their collections, any thought of removing the original lacquer reduces the price by half
Getting back to toys, Dinky, Corgi, etc collectors rate the condition of items including the box. Just one small chip in the paint can have a massive impact on the value of a car. A total repaint renders a cars status to just a Toy again.
So who's right and who is wrong? Well its up to the individual to decide.
Just some of my random thoughts at lunch time today.
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Spokesmann
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I think my thoughts on steam toy 'restos' (  ) are well known, unless it really needs it - leave it. As far as my Corgi cars are concerned I leave as found, totally original - with some of my favourite Corgi Rockets fetching £100+ they are significantly reduced in value by repaints, new decals etc ( a concensus by most serious collectors of die cast cars). Just like the steam toys they should be left and only touched if its an absolute 'beater' and a collection filler is required.
As regard to bicycles the same applies - do you want a rideable bike or a classic restoration?, having done both types of approach I kinda sit on the fence, although destroying original paint an frame graphics is an absolute no-no, unless a machine is so badly worn or rusted no other option is available.
I still think most stuff I see being 'restored' is just a refurb or renovation, in my mind to restore is to put back entirely as a piece was made ie when it left the factory.
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John Chapman
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Nowadays I am fully paid up member of the leave well alone unless it's a total wreck club. The philosophy I have difficulty understanding is where one does not touch the paint work, thereby leaving it as original as possible, but then proceeds to polish the hell out of the brasswork  Just my opinion
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Spokesmann
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| John Chapman wrote: | | Nowadays I am fully paid up member of the leave well alone unless it's a total wreck club. The philosophy I have difficulty understanding is where one does not touch the paint work, thereby leaving it as original as possible, but then proceeds to polish the hell out of the brasswork Just my opinion |
It does make for a very incongruous combination.
Possible addiction to the 'devil's blood'?  
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MFSteam
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I think that comes from the Antique Traders, they live by the rule of:
"If it's brass, polish it!"
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Spokesmann
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I polish my brass step every other day . . .
But thats just snobbery!
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MFSteam
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| Spokesmann wrote: | I polish my brass step every other day . . .
But thats just snobbery! |
Steady, you'll be polishing the stair rods next 
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Spokesmann
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Can anyone replicate these paint finishes . . .
Or this effect known as 'solabrite' paint . . .
Might look nice on an SP4?
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Spokesmann
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| MFSteam wrote: | | Spokesmann wrote: | I polish my brass step every other day . . .
But thats just snobbery! |
Steady, you'll be polishing the stair rods next |
Dont have stair rods, but a clean step is a must!
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MFSteam
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| Spokesmann wrote: | Can anyone replicate these paint finishes . . .
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I used to have socks in those colours
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Spokesmann
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Its hard to see just how bright these are, I have retouched the image slightly.
Collectively these are worth around £250+
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MFSteam
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how much?
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Spokesmann
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I know the prices are stupid for these . . .
This combo is worth best part of 300, the copper Merc is one of about 10 known in this country - so I am told. Less than 3 or 4 are know on a display card/bubble.
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MFSteam
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what are they?
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Spokesmann
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Sorry forgot the link
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Spokesmann
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I think this warranted a refurb.
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Spokesmann
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This to date, is the only restoration I think worthy of the term.
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MFSteam
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| Spokesmann wrote: | I think this warranted a refurb.
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Not as much as this one!
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Spokesmann
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I was having a look for that one!
As a point of reference, the SR1a originally had a textured finish boiler.
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Nick
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I originally wanted to repaint everything, because I wanted it to look perfect. But I held off on my recent restoration.
Does it look like much has been done to this?
Before:
After:
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Spokesmann
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The brass will dull down to a lovely rich yellow on that one Nick, then the whole job will look even better.
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Nick
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Now does it look like this came from that engine?
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Spokesmann
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That PW has a clean inner boiler!
A top engine, a great runner too.
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MFSteam
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the general condition before is very good, the paint is excellent. It has been polished before so you have not lost any original finish. Personally I dont like the really shiny brass and that is why my MF twin has a grained finish. Its all down to personal choice
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Spokesmann
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Its also worth noting that if something is so far gone, then the opportunity to do something different such as the 'M122D' becomes an option. I have an M122 so this one something I wanted to try. Maybe not for Bowman purist, of which I strangely consider myself to be . . .
This project is ongoing.
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MFSteam
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Why did you take the boiler end cap off?
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Nick
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| MFSteam wrote: | | the general condition before is very good, the paint is excellent. It has been polished before so you have not lost any original finish. Personally I dont like the really shiny brass and that is why my MF twin has a grained finish. Its all down to personal choice |
I noticed that and I like it a lot.
I had the boiler looking like it on the right side at this point:
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Spokesmann
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Bushes were knackered Nick? 
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Nick
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| MFSteam wrote: | | Why did you take the boiler end cap off? |
The whistle also sat crooked, so I made the boiler round again:
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MFSteam
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good fix, thats how i make tube round again.
I had to do it on the prototype twin after I dropped it
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Nick
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The friebox paint really bothers me too, but it's a runner, so I'll leave it.
Instead I just straigthened it:
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MFSteam
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good idea
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Spokesmann
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The Luton fireboxes are very malleable, that looks very good Nick.
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MFSteam
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Is this what we should call conservation?
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Spokesmann
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| MFSteam wrote: | | Is this what we should call conservation? |
Well in a way Yes, the engines we all care for are conserved for the future, they have survived, they are steamed (in most cases)... we are all custodians for future owners . . .
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Mamod Collector
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| John Chapman wrote: | | The philosophy I have difficulty understanding is where one does not touch the paint work, thereby leaving it as original as possible, but then proceeds to polish the hell out of the brasswork Just my opinion |
I tend to agree with John on this one
There is nothing worse than a highly polished boiler
On a play worn engine, they just look ridiculous
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Nick
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I know most of you on here will disagree with me, but all of my wood-based Jensens are going to receive a full restoration in the near future.
Even though they are all in very good, original condition, I still feel that they need it.
First of all, they are very easy to restore; black for the firebox, dark blue for the cast engine frame and then the wood base will be better than original.
I am going to do this, because I bought them to run them. They are built sturdy, but their finishing touches just are not the best. The wood bases have nothing covering the wood on the underside and the finish on top is very thin, and applied to wood that wasn't prepared the best (I have heard it was applied with some saw dust still on the wood ). The cast bases also have a very thin layer of paint, and I would like to keep the metal in good condition. The same goes for the firebox, I would like to get rid of any rust and a new coat of black paint will look nice.
In doing these restorations, I hope for these engines to last longer than me. They've already lasted 70 years and still in good shape, but not good enough for my taste.
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Spokesmann
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Look forward to seeing the Jensen work in a new thread Nick.
At the end of the day, if we own an engine it is up to us, the owners, and no one else, thats the harsh reality.
We all have our own tastes and sensibilities and apart from some really stupid acts of 'kindness' I have seen, I would say 95% of the refurbs or renovations I have seen are 'acceptable' - thats as far as I go!
Because we form a personal attchment to a cherished engine(s), any suggestion we are doing wrong to it comes as a very personal attack.
I think constructive debate is very much welcomed, so much useful knowledge can come about from them. We are all influenced by our peers - me being no exception.
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mogogear
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Nick I liked your boiler repair and dent removal effort.. that shiny boiler will take on the evidence of your running soon!!
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TRIPLET
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Re: The Big Restoration Question | MFSteam wrote: | Many of you know my thought on Restoration so I am not going into all that again. What has come to mind recently due to a recent and unnecessary repaint (in my mind) is how restoration is thought of in different collecting circles.
Lets take toy steam as a start. Many consider a total repaint and a complete polish as a acceptable way of caring for and displaying engines. Some even think that it is a way of increasing their value. Indeed shiny engines do tend to fetch more on ebay.
A similar approach can be can be said to be true for vintage vehicles, and I would agree here.
Ceramic collectors frown on any sort of restoration
Scientific instrument collectors dust their collections, any thought of removing the original lacquer reduces the price by half
Getting back to toys, Dinky, Corgi, etc collectors rate the condition of items including the box. Just one small chip in the paint can have a massive impact on the value of a car. A total repaint renders a cars status to just a Toy again.
So who's right and who is wrong? Well its up to the individual to decide.
Just some of my random thoughts at lunch time today. |
i would say that a repaint/polish is only acceptable if little or none of the original finish is left.when i started collecting steam toys i was very guilty of over restoring almost everything i got but now only do it if the finish has deterioated beyond a certain point.i am interested in classic cars and motorbikes and the "concours" thing has a lot to answer for,was recently looking at a fifties Triumph Tiger Hundred motorcycle which had been severely over restored and to a very high standard,but i could have had a shave in every bit of alluminium on it including the cylinder head fins!!!
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wilescoman
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I think everyone to there own ! depend how far you want to go ! I do like to see engines with that well worn look about them end of the day they were made to run .Well look what ive been up to but a new boiler in a d32 converted it to run on gas ,as got some paint loss here and there but i think that just adds to the overall effect ! .Its like the old saying if it aint broke don't fix it ,but sometimes its got to be done ! .
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Spokesmann
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I think its the rare English engines that stir up the emotions! 
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JohnO
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From what I have seen, repaint/don't repaint varies according to the original finish.
The simpler the original finish, the easier it is to do an accurate job, and the less original finish seems to matter.
Many of the Nuremburg models came with an elaborate level of finish - litho bases, pinstriping, oxydised boiler finish, all of which can be very difficult to get exact. Repaint jobs seem to hammer their value, partially because most restorers don't get it right.
However, an old model like a Bowman, with a fairly simple paint scheme, doesn't suffer in value from a repaint, and in fact it probably helps. One of my personal favorites, Mersey, is fairly easy to restore, and looks ever so handsome when it has been refinished to the original appearance.
One rule still holds true: a good engineer keeps their engines clean and in operating condition, regardless of scale or age.
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silverfoxsteam
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This is a very interesting thread and I have great sympathy with all the opinions expressed.
There have been a number of items on OFAS that have clearly been 'done up' for sale. Some have been won by forum members - at least now they're in 'safe hand'!!!
I don't believe that all this 'restoration' actually adds value, although it may increase the desirability, especially in the pictures.
I try to use certain parameters in deciding the extent to which I rebuild and repaint:
1. The level of corrosion and therefore vulnerability to further deterioration
2. The engine's ability to survive regular steamings (I don't keep 'shelf queens')
3. My ability to produce a result which at the very least 'pays homage' to the original
It's important to me that none of the original is damaged in any way and that the restoration reflects the appears and quality of the original as far as possible, modern materials allowing of course.
I know that I've not posted many pictures of the Silver Fox Collection (I will try harder - honest), but these illustrate 'a suitable case for treatment' recently completed:
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Scorpion2nz
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my personal opinion is if working and in reasonable condition leave alone all my engines are to be run at some point. i do repair if needed to in order to get working but have not done any repaint yet. had to repair last engine i got but that is another story
working unrestored engines have "Character" unlike repainted trophys which are only good to look at and not much else
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Bowman
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Interesting thread this. Until recently my collecting bug has been mainly vintage trains where restoration is for me unthinkable, some do restore trains but the value of repainted items is fantastically less than even a fairly tatty original. Thats a scenario which i fully agree with.
Steam engines values seem not to be so badly affected by cosmetic "freshening" up, although again i would always go for an honest original item if the choice was available...
Sandy
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Spokesmann
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The E135 looks terrific. That may have 'cleaned' up a bit, although perhaps even I would jave lent more towardss a full refurbishment there.
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Spokesmann
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| Scorpion2nz wrote: | my personal opinion is if working and in reasonable condition leave alone all my engines are to be run at some point. i do repair if needed to in order to get working but have not done any repaint yet. had to repair last engine i got but that is another story
working unrestored engines have "Character" unlike repainted trophys which are only good to look at and not much else |
Good term. 
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silverfoxsteam
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Sorry but I ran out of time on the previous post, I meant to add a few comments!
The E135 was clearly in a bad way. At some time a conflagration (must have been quite a sight) had burned away the base under the firebox down to half the thickness! The engine had been repaired, but not what I'd call 'sympathetically', others may even use the term 'abuse' - look at the soldering for pete's sake. The firebox and strap were corroded and the machine plate paintwork was chipped, dulled and I deemed inadequate to afford reasonable protection for a working engine.
I've still got the old base but made a new one usung the old as a template. The firebox and boiler strap got the BBQ paint treatment and the machine plate was stripped, primed and got a fresh coat of my favourite green.
The burner tank was ok but the tube FUBAR (to use Ian's term). A new tube was fitted and a new oiler tap provided from the premier purveyor of these things (thanks again Ian).
The chimney is a replica - more about that someother time!
In contrast to the Bowman job, and just to illustrate some more points in this thread, this little Doll required some protection against further corrosion in the flame area of the firebox - because of the time-given matt finish of the old paint, the BBQ paint did the job. About 40% of the paint was missing from the flywheel and some of the lead flywheel had melted away! The metal was repaired was epoxy metal putty and filed back to shape and the paint was matched and completed.
The base could be repainted and the boiler polished up - but why? It's unnecessary for either protection or function (I think) looks great.
The base of this Bing was badly corroded around the edge, but there was no question in my mind of harming the tile effect on the top. Careful masking and spraying produced this result:
Again the steel firebox needed protection in the flame area, although the blend is not as satisfactory as in the case of the Doll.
I suppose, at the end of the day, I have to admit that I collect these things in order to breathe new life into them and make them once again 'fit for purpose' - most of the fun comes from this. However I try to do this with respect for the original - what else can you do?
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Mamod Collector
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I like the way you repainted the edges of the Bing
It look very nice
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Mamod Collector
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I'm affraid I dont like to restore engines although I have in the past
I restored this SE2 about 15 years ago, I think it has aged rather nicely though
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silverfoxsteam
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| Mamod Collector wrote: | I like the way you repainted the edges of the Bing
It look very nice |
Thanks Mike, much appreciated.
I think the main point that Ian made (at the start of this thread - remember!!!) is that it's often assumed, wrongly, that these things should be 'done up' and that it's often done badly, fundamentaly chaning the character.
Possibly the rule should be 'Think and think again' before reaching for the Nitro, wet 'n dry and the spray can!
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silverfoxsteam
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| Mamod Collector wrote: | I'm affraid I dont like to restore engines although I have in the past
I restored this SE2 about 15 years ago, I think it has aged rather nicely though
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...and that's another good point. These things are old and we can't always be sure how they looked as new. But after refurbishment and possibly (I hope) with use, as time goes on, they mellow and change, developing a new patina and character.
The important thing is that they survive in our hands, safe for future generations to debate the pros & cons!
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Minor1PJG
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I don't mind a repaint if the original finish is 'gone' but if it has just aged then I prefer a polish and a wipe with an oily rag
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John Chapman
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| Minor1PJG wrote: | | I don't mind a repaint if the original finish is 'gone' but if it has just aged then I prefer a polish and a wipe with an oily rag |
I very much agree with that sentiment, it sums up my thoughts on the matter to perfection.
| silverfoxsteam wrote: | | The important thing is that they survive in our hands, safe for future generations to debate the pros & cons! |
That is so very true.
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MTA
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I have one, simple rule when it comes to deciding whether to restore an engine or not:
If there is less than 50% of the original paint in place, a repaint is in order!
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