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Spokesmann

Renovate or Restoration

I know we all have our own views of this contentious subject, but I feel that the two words are often misused when describing the repair and cleaning of an engine. I always thought to restore was to put back to 'as new' condition, as it left the factory and to renovate was to repair and put right, not necessarily historically correct. Any ideas??

I bring this up as I was looking at a 'collector's' stable of restored engines from elsewhere on the web and its quite clear they were renovated, as most had non standard paint and in some case decals and fittings . . .

Its seems that anything which has be polished to within an inch of its life these days is described as restored, wouldn't be so bad if some of these collectors actually steamed them - but these 'executive toy collector types' only seem to run them on air (at most) or put them on shelves. Im sure you will have your views on it . . .
Puts tin hat on and retires to a safe distance . . . .
Mamod Collector

Ohh Mike you have gone and opened a can of worms here ..... Very Happy
A pole might have hepled here too
I would NOT restore a engine, unless it was rotten,
It would be a crime to strip and repaint one of these



I would and did restore these several years ago

Spokesmann

I thought of a poll - but it was during my lunch break so though I would just get things going!

The bottom two defo needed renovating!!

The SE4 and SE2 are just fine as they are!! Laughing
MFSteam

rather than restoration, i would put that as repainting, polishing, etc i prefer conservation, gentle cleaning of paint and brass, definately no brasso, soldering where needed and manufacture of new parts only if missing, all damaged parts are tidyed up. i am in the camp of keeping as original metal as possible.
Spokesmann

MFSteam wrote:
rather than restoration, i would put that as repainting, polishing, etc i prefer conservation, gentle cleaning of paint and brass, definately no brasso, soldering where needed and manufacture of new parts only if missing, all damaged parts are tidyed up. i am in the camp of keeping as original metal as possible.


I agree, though a bit of brasso now and again! My last aquisitions ie the L4 and the PW203 are in 'as found' condition.
Spokesmann

How not to renovate:

Now this is just MY opinion.

Before: playworn, beautiful.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/ategg/000_0154.jpg

After: devoid of character, the 'polish it to within and inch of its life approach'

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/ategg/000_0176.jpg

Remember this is just me, this has been done well, but I think this is too much, I used to be like this, then I saw the light - the real light. Praise be! Laughing
newts

To its defence the latimer's paint has been left as original, which is a definate plus point. Polishing brass is a personal thing, once this one loses it's shinyness & gets a duller patina to her, i think it will look a fine engine. When i restored the E101 , it had to be the full works. Whilst i was pleased with the finished article, she was a bit too shiny. Six months later & a few steamings under her belt, we are starting to get a patina to the brass, which will improve further as it dulls down abit .







This is the tone of brass that i think looks good on the older engines



This one definately wll be left as is, original untouched. Just an oily rag periodically.

Spokesmann

I agree Mike - the 101 needed it - but its been totally redone, in the case of some now they polish and polish and polish - but leave the shabby paint . . . you get this uneasy incongruent look of highly 'restored' brass and shabby original paint - do all or so nothing . . .

I love that last two . . . . Very Happy
Mamod Collector

Very nice sympathetic restore on the Bowman Mike, it needed doing and looks good ... Very Happy
oldstuff

Ah well, to each his own. I liked the results of cleaning that L4 and think it's a real beauty.
I would've had a hard time living with all that black soot.

Yet, I've seen so many old engines like that, I'm beginning to see it as dating tool.
I suspect that kind of coating comes from lamp oil, kerosene, and back then they
probably fired 'em with candles, too, if that's all they could scrounge up.
So, it's a bit two-sided coin.

I think Mike's venerable SE4 looks great just the way it is!
old_timer

oldstuff wrote:
Ah well, to each his own. I liked the results of cleaning that L4 and think it's a real beauty.
I would've had a hard time living with all that black soot...


I'm pretty much of the same opinion. Whilst it's often a tough call whether to polish/restore or leave alone, I do think the Latimer needed cleaning (I too couldn't live with all that soot) and so polishing the whole thing was the only action. The brass or copper will soon tarnish again with time and produce that aged look without the sooty marks (assuming the engine is not fired or cleaned in the meantime)

The base plate is a good example of where the difficulty in deciding comes; whether to remove the rust and repaint the whole base plate or the clean up the best that is possible whilst retaining the original paintwork. I think here too, the owner made the right decision as the base plate is not too severely corroded.
Spokesmann

Ill beg to differ on this one chaps - nowt stirs up the emotions than 'restoration'!! Laughing
newts

Life would be very boring if we all agreed on everyting, nothing like the restoration subject to sitr up a hornets nest Laughing
I too don't like sooty boilers with blotchy congealed laquer, so i tend to polish em up a bit. Then again, when they lose their shine a bit, they soon get that aged look about them. Repainting is a different matter to me & should be avoided except in the most extreme cases. I'd have no hesitation in stripping an engine that had already been repainted poorly & trying to return it to a more sympathetic condition. I think we have a duty to preserve, where possible for future collectors. At the moment things like bowman engines are obtained pretty easily. In another 25-30 years they will be much harder to come by & some may not last that long without a bit of careful, sympathetic TLC.
old_timer

You are quite welcome to defend your position here, steamgranny, but a couple of points need clarifying:

1. If you care to read the thread, you will have seen that not everyone has the same opinion, and clearly yours is more aligned to some others here (me included), but to be fair the poster did say that this was their own opinion only.
As they also stated in the opening sentence of the thread "I know we all have our own views of this contentious subject..." How perceptive that was? What is nice is that varying opinions are allowed to be freely posted here - hence the forum name. Smile

2. More importantly, no one has "swiped" nor "posted up here" your photos as you incorrectly allege. You freely published them on the internet. All that is here is a link to them - something that is quite in order on the internet - it's how the internet works Wink
If you didn't wish other people to see those photos, perhaps you should reconsider the wisdom of publishing them openly on a media that is accessible worldwide. Smile
Spokesmann

Well, as we say on here its very a much a free forum and free speech is very much encourged, unlike some places on the web. I take it you have joined our forum to make one post and thats it?
Id rather you didn't, but its your choice - as for the images they have links to them on a public forum, Im sorry if you are offended by the thread here - but we all have very differing views on so called 'restoration' and I feel that healthy debate, and robust argument over the relative merits of our individual approaches makes for a very lively forum, your example was just one which caught my eye. I feel my opinions on this line of work are well documented, but as my colleague has pointed out - ther are some collectors views whiich concur with yours.

Forums would be rather dull if we all glibly agreed with the admin just to curry favour. I hope that clearly puts the case over to you.

All the best...

Mike
Admin
Mamod Collector

Welcome to the forum Gran ............ Very Happy
You seemed to come accross quite aggressive in your first post
No need for aggression on this forum Gran, its a friendly place
And Im sure no offence was ment by using your photos
And most people think youve done a good job
It would be nice if you could contribute to this forum on a regular basis
As you seem to know your stuff
oldstuff

Aye, Mike...she does.
She loves toy steam engines and sharing her passion with us would be great.

Hi Steamgranny!

Perhaps a different example coulda/shoulda been used. I think you did a
fine job on the L4. Some others here feel the same way, and some don't.

I'm grateful for your reply, mostly because it jarred loose something I had
learned. This is not for you particularly, but for anyone who sees merit in it.

A friend of mine told me her husband often calls her an old hag.
I said, "But, doesn't that bother you?", and she said "No".
I asked, "Why?" She said, "Because it doesn't mean anything".

I stared at her a moment, my head cocked like when a dog hears an odd noise.
Something new was sinking in "...it doesn't mean anything".

What a great philosophy! The new tool she gave went to a guy who needed it.
Remembering I have it? Well...I'm still working on that! Wink
Spokesmann

Steamgranny wrote:
I discovered this forum just 3 days ago, quite by accident & returned yesterday to find myself in the cross hairs. I therefore joined to defend my corner, as I’m the new & very proud caretaker of little L4 mentioned above.
Firstly - I’m not altogether sure I appreciate my pics being swiped & posted up here to serve as ammunition for attack without my permission.
Secondly -“Polished to within an inch of its life”. Hardly & I defy anyone to hand polish through a Latimer boiler! Augeas will have cleaned his stables before you get through that brass. No tool or machine touched this & all was done by hand & elbow grease.
When did grime triumph over gleam (for that was not ‘patina’ on boiler!) & years of neglect transform to play worn? On this basis should I have also left the thick oily crud in cylinder that may have prevented it running or seriously fatigued the engine? Or the years-old but very genuine rust slowly eating away at what was left of an already fragile burner? How is a thick build up of soot or old oil advantageous? Grime & dirt being anathema to mechanical parts.
I’m old enough to remember live steam & a local water-pumping engine. When it wasn’t being stoked or oiled its brass was being polished until it shone. Methinks ‘play’ & ‘worn’ would not be words oft heard inside that engine house.
The Shire horse pair I once cared for would not have been allowed out of their stable if every last buckle & horse brass did not gleam, despite some being a century or so old. It was considered a courtesy & respect for the animals. It also means I know just how quickly patina can build up again!
Since the photo, the L4 has been steamed 4 times, with many more due. It runs beautifully. No shelf (or compressed-air) queen, this!
I also acquired an L5 recently. It had been cosmetically & badly repainted at some point in the distant past & some paint rubbed back to brass, more by an antique dealer than a steam enthusiast, I feel. Nor did it work. Should I have left ‘ as found’, under pretext it was part of its history or do what I did, which was to totally strip, treat the hidden rust eating away unseen & repaint to original colours? Solder a small but non-original, brass bung into missing plughole to enable it to work? It now steams like a beauty, & yes, I polished the brass too.
What is my role? I am buying for my pleasure, to keep, run & care for. Not for engines to sit on shelves or to restore & sell on at profit or even as an investment: I’m too old for that! I feel it a duty & challenge to restore to steam where possible (restore & renovate mean virtually same thing) And 'preserve' as best I may so that future generations can one day experience same pleasure & joy of owning an old & preferably working steam toy.
I find it a little ironic that removing grime is frowned upon but sticking a magnificent repro decal on a 50 year-old engine is deemed acceptable?
But I do not tell other people what to do with their engines, nor do I comment unless my opinion is solicited, following pictures posted by the owner.
To each, his or her own. Happy steaming to all & may our little engines steam away for many more years, preserved as best we may & as we see fit.
Over & out.
Steamgranny


It isn't!! I know an SE4 with one . . . . Wink

A very good point though! Something we agree on! Very Happy
MFSteam

Spokesmann wrote:
How not to renovate:

Now this is just MY opinion.

Before: playworn, beautiful.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/ategg/000_0154.jpg

After: devoid of character, the 'polish it to within and inch of its life approach'

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c335/ategg/000_0176.jpg

Remember this is just me, this has been done well, but I think this is too much, I used to be like this, then I saw the light - the real light. Praise be! Laughing


one more reason to ban the blood of the devil "Brasso"

An engine once full of age and character is now reduced to .-.,-#.lls (insert your own comment)

I do agree however that an engine can be sympathetically cleaned, parrafin does a fine job of removing soot marks but why the polish it removes the laquer. If you had a piece of antique furniture that was a little grubby would you strip the original varnish of just to clean it?
Granny you are quite right to restore you L5 as it has been repainted but to treat a beautiful L4 like you have is not in my opinion the right thing to do.
Any way welcome to the forum and i hope that you become a regular poster. All the best MF
Spokesmann

Bottom line there is no real right or wrong way, except for a few real no nos, like removing a decal, painting for paintings sake or needless modification . . .

We are a broad church here, there is room for all . . . Amen.

(Must remember the use of "devils blood"!! Laughing )
oldstuff

"Blood of the devil, Brasso". Laughing

I vaguely knew my Falk vertical's boiler had lacquer over it and removing it might
hurt it's "value", but I tried anyway 'cause it looked so crappy to me at the time.
I stopped when it wouldn't easily come off. But it didn't matter, a wild flame
from it's burner melted a good portion of the flywheel, then the safety valve bush
got stripped-out, the steam pipe joint broke, and the cylinder was ruined by a dent
when I dropped it.

I had a pretty nice Falk vertical...once. But I don't feel bad over it's demise.
Chit happens, mon. I bought it to do with as I please. I don't think the Jesus or
the steam angels will damn me, so neither should you.

Someday, I'll may get an engine that I don't want to clean or even fire. If I had
another Falk just like the other, I'd be much more careful with it. But if a newbie
came by with one and his plan was to slap wheels on it, paint it red and call it a
mobile, I'd say, "Go for it, mate. Can't wait for the pics"!

Well, maybe it wouldn't quite be like that. Laughing

If we want to be a community, flexability is indispensible. We don't all have to be
on the same page to give a nod of respect or word of encouragement to others.
Spokesmann

If we have any more comments on this contentious issue, please feel free to post away - there have been some very worthwhile and noteworthy comments here!

Mike
Admin
newts

open debate without it getting personal Very Happy
Spokesmann

Just been having a review of past topics, this one always catches my eye. Alas the words restoration and renovation still seem to be blurred in meaning by some.  Wink  Smile
Mamod Collector

Spokesmann wrote:
Just been having a review of past topics, this one always catches my eye. Alas the words restoration and renovation still seem to be blurred in meaning by some.  Wink  Smile

Maybe a pole would be in order Mike
Spokesmann

The words nest, stir and hornets spring to mind Mike . . . . Smile

Just that the word 'resto' really gets to me. Looked at an engine today, the owner said full resto, hey look at my work - all he had done was polish it with the devils blood!! Thats just rubbish . . . Laughing
Mamod Collector

Spokesmann wrote:
Looked at an engine today, the owner said full resto, hey look at my work - all he had done was polish it with the devils blood!! Thats just rubbish . . . Laughing

How anyone can remove 40' 50' or 60' years worth of beautiful patina
From an engines boiler with Brasso and think it looks better Ill never know
Each to there own, and no offence is ment to boiler polishers
But to remove 60 years worth of patina is not restoring its desecration.
Merry Christmas    
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