spug103
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Boilers, can you guess what it is yet?Right then guys here goes, you've asked for it now!!!!
firstly the two latest, most famous boilers we've been involved in.
as im sure you've all guessed the previous photos were of 4472 flying scotsman, A3 boiler
this little beauty is the firebox for the stephensons rocket, hand flogged over a set of dies made by my own fair hands (luckily i dont do the big hammer work). more later
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avenger
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Interesting pics Ta
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Spokesmann
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What's is the first boiler from?
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steamyjim
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| Spokesmann wrote: | | What's is the first boiler from? |
A3 
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newts
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Great stuff, i fear you may have set a precedent now. 
We'll need regular updates of course,
not often you get as close a look as this.
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spug103
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| Spokesmann wrote: | | What's is the first boiler from? |
the first photo is as steamyjim says an A3 boiler, more importantly it is from 4472 flying scotsman, we have done alot to it, new backhead, outer wrapper, and part of the throatplate, also a complete, new copper firebox, along with all the other little bits and peices.
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steamyjim
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Where is your workshop?
Being in Tavistock makes me think of the Robey Trust workshops aulthough there is the Launceston railway aswell?
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spug103
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we are just outside tavistock on the road towards okehampton,
the robey trust is just a stones throw from my house, i can hear them steam up! visitors are always welome.
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steamyjim
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| spug103 wrote: | we are just outside tavistock on the road towards okehampton,
the robey trust is just a stones throw from my house, i can hear them steam up! visitors are always welome. |
I'd like to come and visit  I remember being invited into the Robey Trusts workshops while I was on holiday a few years ago with my family. We met a painter in Tavistock who owned an engine that was stored there, he said go and say I told you to come. We were almost kicked out of the trusts site as it was private, but they ended up stopping all work to explain anything and everything to my grandad and I
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8_10 Brass Cleaner
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Flying scotchman and Rocket
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Mamod Collector
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Most impresive set of pics spug, as Mike says you have set a precedent now
We will need more
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MTA
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I was very worried I identified 4472's boiler just by the shape of the firehole 
The Mid Hants should have an opening for a boilersmith apprentice either next year or 2011, I'm considering going for it depending on what I am doing then.
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MFSteam
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 fantastic pics.
My hand is up for a visit next time I'm down your way.
What really gets my goat is the NRM's policy over restoring engines. They wont get a new cylinder block made for Green Arrow, restore Load Star, Mallard or any of the other historic locomotive. Yet they see it fit to spend over £100000 re cladding a tin bath for static display and spend huge sums of money repairing an old boiler. With all the work you describe being done to FS the original boiler is little more that a boiler tube. Whats the point in saving that? Wouldn't they have been better off starting from scratch like Tornado's boiler. More importantly would any of the hundreds of thousands of visitors really care if it wasn't original? I dont expect an answer Spug just some of my random thoughts on restoration.
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spug103
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Do you want traction engines too?
anyway heres a few more loco boiler pics,
Heres a boiler from the tallylyn railway, it is 0-4-2 "Tom Rolt" (narrow gauge)
heres a boiler that has been seemingly abandoned at our works, it is from a standard gauge 0-6-0 hunslet, originally built for the national coal board, now owned by dartmoor railways, as most may know dartmoor railways has been through alot of hands over the last few years so work didnt really get started.
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MFSteam
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Any pics welcomed with open hands, any of the actual metal forming process you use. It must be a mile away from my Jones and Shipman 540 surface grinder and Bridgeport milling machine.
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spug103
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| MFSteam wrote: | fantastic pics.
My hand is up for a visit next time I'm down your way.
What really gets my goat is the NRM's policy over restoring engines. They wont get a new cylinder block made for Green Arrow, restore Load Star, Mallard or any of the other historic locomotive. Yet they see it fit to spend over £100000 re cladding a tin bath for static display and spend huge sums of money repairing an old boiler. With all the work you describe being done to FS the original boiler is little more that a boiler tube. Whats the point in saving that? Wouldn't they have been better off starting from scratch like Tornado's boiler. More importantly would any of the hundreds of thousands of visitors really care if it wasn't original? I dont expect an answer Spug just some of my random thoughts on restoration. |
dont tell any one but the scotsman boiler was gone a long long time ago, its been running an a4 boiler for god knows how long, the a3 boiler was from another "less historic" loco even then the original scotsman had an a2!!! but before that the name was originally given to a stirling single.
anyway, in a way you right about there not being much left but it is always nearly impossible to work from drawings alone on these things as they have always been modified and no ammendments are ever made to the drawings  the way we work when restoring a boiler is to cut remove a pannel - replace a pannel, that way it will always fit back from whence it came, i have seen other companies get themselves in all sorts of greif for stripping it all apart and and then hoping everything fits back together later,
as for the tornado boiler, it wouldnt be right for me to comment on that one!!!
i will take some photos of our machines at some point, nothing so technical as a jones and shipman
heres a video of some riveting to keep you amused
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF9tsnHtWxE[url]
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Spokesmann
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...Id love to see some money thrown at 6000.
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spug103
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is that the hunslet? i dont always get told the engine numbers,
an american has just bought dartmoor railway my boss is trying to get hold of him to get the job started again
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MFSteam
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I think Mike might be talking about a slightly bigger locomotive, KGV
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Spokesmann
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Criminal its kept languishing (albeit in showroom condition) at Swindon Steam museum. How much for a new boiler! 
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spug103
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the same as a mint mm1
plus lots of noughts
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MFSteam
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Didn't it get a pass up to York recently?
Ben, do you have an interest in the engines you work on or is it "just a job"?
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spug103
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it depends if things are running smoothly
i wasnt into steam before i started working there the second time round, ive always been more of a petrol head,
but now i will say im very proud to be working on such historic monuments,
that said having been trained as a toolmaker / precision engineer turning out work for the likes of nasa, bae, marconi, ect i do miss the really precise stuff hence going into the hobby side.
as well as my mamods im a member of plymouth miniature steam club where theres a large multigauge track i have a 5" gauge electric loco, and im scratch building a 5" gauge 0-6-0 live steam side tank loco.
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MFSteam
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Oh no there's another Toolmaker in the house, I better watch what I say
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spug103
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heres a couple more photos of the f/scotsman before i move onto other things
and onto other things...
heres a boiler from a foden 5 ton wagon, its one of my babys.
i have some new ones of progress on the taw valley (wescountry class)
i'll put them on once ive finished my clearout on photobucket.
cheers
ben
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spug103
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heres a couple of photos of the last radius on the taw valley (bullied westcountry class) firebox crown sheet being pressed, first we pressed the crown radius which i think was about 180" pressed at 6" intervals, (due to the spacing of the bottom pushers this is correct to stop flat spots) then we pressed each end, this was done at 1 1/4" intervals, and using a laser cut template to guage both, the correct distance to the centre line and the correct radius,
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Spokesmann
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Serious kit, how long to press that item.
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spug103
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as you can imagine its not a quick job with a great lump of boilerplate like that!
i think it took just over a day and a half for two people, with setting up.
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Spokesmann
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My dad would love this stuff, he served his time as a boilermaker/welder with Willoughby's in Plymouth...
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spug103
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we've bought a fair bit of their old tooling, mainly air tools and forging hammers if my memories serve me correctly.
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Spokesmann
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Well they ended when Plymouth's Millbay docks was cleared of industry and railways (sadly). He went on to work at the Yard on RN stuff of all types, ending up on N-sub reactor work, most of his hearing went too at Willoughbys as he has a perforated eardrum and partially perforated ear drum, he loves all the old engineering stuff though. He took me around the works in 1969 just after it closed so I could see for myself heavy industry, I was only 5 at the time but it made a big impact on me, I remember it now. Although I never followed in his footsteps and do love to see what you people get up to!
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made-in-england
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Great pics!
| Quote: | | The Mid Hants should have an opening for a boilersmith apprentice either next year or 2011, I'm considering going for it depending on what I am doing then |
Sodding W/Sussex lot coming over here to our railways getting our boiler apprenticships.. hehe 
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spug103
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handbags at dawn ladies
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MFSteam
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That boiler plate is a lot thinner than I thought it would be.
Mind you the thickest material we press is 0.5mm
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spug103
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| MFSteam wrote: |
That boiler plate is a lot thinner than I thought it would be.
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This is exactly why i, and many other people are not too convinced on the bullied boilers, efficient heat transfer perhaps but far too thin especially in the throatplate, foundation ring / channel area, and syphons. our company have done a fair number of boilers (and pressings for the other boilermakers) for these locos and they all have the same floors and need the same repairs, we now press the foundation channels using oversize plate, as they are a real pain, owners are less welcoming of the idea of using oversize plate anywhere else.
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MFSteam
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You might be getting an inquiry from the Bulleid Society, apparently their WC Blackmoor Vale needs a complete inner firebox  .
Sounds rather expensive to me
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MTA
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| MFSteam wrote: | You might be getting an inquiry from the Bulleid Society, apparently their WC Blackmoor Vale needs a complete inner firebox .
Sounds rather expensive to me |
21C123 has caused them no-end of problems, which is surprising really seeing how little problems the other serviceable Spam Cans have had such as 92 Squadron and Tangmere.
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MFSteam
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| MTA wrote: | | MFSteam wrote: | You might be getting an inquiry from the Bulleid Society, apparently their WC Blackmoor Vale needs a complete inner firebox .
Sounds rather expensive to me |
21C123 has caused them no-end of problems, which is surprising really seeing how little problems the other serviceable Spam Cans have had such as 92 Squadron and Tangmere. |
Tangmere is a great loco and touching a large piece of wood very reliable.
I think most of the trouble with BV has been with the boiler. Didn't it get a fast track rebuild last time?
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MTA
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I think it did have a fast-track overhaul if memory serves me right.
Lesson to be learnt: Don't rush anything!
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MFSteam
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| MTA wrote: | I think it did have a fast-track overhaul if memory serves me right.
Lesson to be learnt: Don't rush anything! |
You've got to hand it to the Bluebell, they put out a stock list availability forecast a number of years ago and it lists BV as available until 2008. Looks like they had seen it coming.
Port Line had a number of boiler problems whilst at the Bluebell, I think its got a new boiler going on it now.
I was talking to the guys in the workshop about Sinclair, they were tossing around a couple of ideas. Getting rid of the siphons as they are not really required for running on heritage lines and also the possibility of using hollow stays. The idea of the hollow stays is that you get an instant obvious leak when one fails, none of this ultra sonic testing that is currently required.
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spug103
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we've just done a new westcountry tubeplate for southern locos, and i have been told of a firebox enqiury, i didnt know which loco it was for though, as you can possibally guess from what i have already shared of the taw valley re-build, we are building a complete new inner firebox, we have now made the tubeplate and crown sheet, i expect to be developing the side profiles in the next few weeks, obviously we already have most of the press tools already but we are thinking about making our throatplate tool larger, or we may have to hand flog it in a larger section, it all depends on budgets, tooling costs are obviously very high!!
as for hollow stays there is the school of thought that they could be weaker, and need larger diameters as a result which can then cause cracking as a result, i dont know personally, i dont do the workings out, but it is a belief none the less,
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MFSteam
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I really like all this technical stuff and thanks for your input. It really gives us an idea of what goes on under the skin of a Locomotive
Perhaps all the Bulleid owners should get together and batch order some fireboxes, there are plenty out there, that will make a nice project for you.
Didn't Bulleid say the following " as long as there are welders there will be Bulleid Boilers"
Have you any idea of what happened to the boiler on Lord Nelson? I never really understood what went wrong and why they are being so careful now that the repairs have been carried out.
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spug103
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| MFSteam wrote: |
Have you any idea of what happened to the boiler on Lord Nelson? I never really understood what went wrong and why they are being so careful now that the repairs have been carried out. |
im not sure what problem you are refuring too, im not in denial, im just obviously out of that loop i suppose as i havnt heard, i can ask at work though to get the inside story,
but what have i missed about that one?
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8_10 Brass Cleaner
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| MFSteam wrote: |
Have you any idea of what happened to the boiler on Lord Nelson? I never really understood what went wrong and why they are being so careful now that the repairs have been carried out. |
Operator error.
That is why the lot who restored it, did not get it back off the NRM on the same terms after it was repaired. Anyone else notice how coy the Eastleigh lot have been about it all?
My understanding is that the boiler inspector failed the boiler after the brick arch fell out.
I do not know why, but using my knowledge of boilers I suggest that it could have been because the rate at which the boiler temperature is raised, this could have caused a differential expansion between the copper firebox and the steel outer.
So in simplistic terms the firebox could have 'moved' and the brick arch fell out. Who knows.
I gather also that during operation in the 1980's the boiler came very close to a nasty accident, and that the firebox was damaged as a result.
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MFSteam
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I dont really want to point a finger as I dont know enough about boiler to really comment. I understand that the constant heat cycling that a boiler gets these days is not good because the boiler is put under extra stresses from going hot-cold regularly.
The boiler was in a terrible state before it got to Pridhams and they carried out extensive work, no doubt to a fantastic high standard. I read that the inner box was particularly bad and previous repairs had not been carried out in the correct manner ( I neither know or care who were responsible for these repairs).
I am more interested in why the NRM wanted and still do a period of running in, surley if a boiler has been repaired then that is it?
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spug103
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| 8_10 Brass Cleaner wrote: | | MFSteam wrote: |
Have you any idea of what happened to the boiler on Lord Nelson? I never really understood what went wrong and why they are being so careful now that the repairs have been carried out. |
Operator error.
That is why the lot who restored it, did not get it back off the NRM on the same terms after it was repaired. Anyone else notice how coy the Eastleigh lot have been about it all?
My understanding is that the boiler inspector failed the boiler after the brick arch fell out.
I do not know why, but using my knowledge of boilers I suggest that it could have been because the rate at which the boiler temperature is raised, this could have caused a differential expansion between the copper firebox and the steel outer.
So in simplistic terms the firebox could have 'moved' and the brick arch fell out. Who knows.
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i have spoken to some people that know today and can confirm the first remark of operator error, there is a detailed description to this conclusion but im in a rush at the mo i may get back on the forum later,
cheers
ben
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8_10 Brass Cleaner
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| MFSteam wrote: | I dont really want to point a finger as I dont know enough about boiler to really comment. I understand that the constant heat cycling that a boiler gets these days is not good because the boiler is put under extra stresses from going hot-cold regularly.
The boiler was in a terrible state before it got to Pridhams and they carried out extensive work, no doubt to a fantastic high standard. I read that the inner box was particularly bad and previous repairs had not been carried out in the correct manner ( I neither know or care who were responsible for these repairs).
I am more interested in why the NRM wanted and still do a period of running in, surley if a boiler has been repaired then that is it? |
Ian, not me pointing the fingers. I believe that the NRM is on record doing so.
Though the constant cycling is not good for boilers, I do not consider that the problem.
I can only speculate, but perhaps the rate at which temperature was raised could have been the problem......
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MFSteam
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| 8_10 Brass Cleaner wrote: | | MFSteam wrote: | I dont really want to point a finger as I dont know enough about boiler to really comment. I understand that the constant heat cycling that a boiler gets these days is not good because the boiler is put under extra stresses from going hot-cold regularly.
The boiler was in a terrible state before it got to Pridhams and they carried out extensive work, no doubt to a fantastic high standard. I read that the inner box was particularly bad and previous repairs had not been carried out in the correct manner ( I neither know or care who were responsible for these repairs).
I am more interested in why the NRM wanted and still do a period of running in, surley if a boiler has been repaired then that is it? |
Ian, not me pointing the fingers. I believe that the NRM is on record doing so.
Though the constant cycling is not good for boilers, I do not consider that the problem.
I can only speculate, but perhaps the rate at which temperature was raised could have been the problem...... |
so why the need for long term running in of the boiler?
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8_10 Brass Cleaner
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| MFSteam wrote: | | 8_10 Brass Cleaner wrote: | | MFSteam wrote: | I dont really want to point a finger as I dont know enough about boiler to really comment. I understand that the constant heat cycling that a boiler gets these days is not good because the boiler is put under extra stresses from going hot-cold regularly.
The boiler was in a terrible state before it got to Pridhams and they carried out extensive work, no doubt to a fantastic high standard. I read that the inner box was particularly bad and previous repairs had not been carried out in the correct manner ( I neither know or care who were responsible for these repairs).
I am more interested in why the NRM wanted and still do a period of running in, surley if a boiler has been repaired then that is it? |
Ian, not me pointing the fingers. I believe that the NRM is on record doing so.
Though the constant cycling is not good for boilers, I do not consider that the problem.
I can only speculate, but perhaps the rate at which temperature was raised could have been the problem...... |
so why the need for long term running in of the boiler? |
Quite simply that an unreliable engine is not a good thing out on the national network. Both costly and bad for the prolonged use of steam on the main line.
It is a possibility (and quite likely) that it is a stipulation of its re-certification for Main line use.
It was reported in the press that the NRM wanted a maintainance and operation regime agreed before they let anyone have it for use.
On a different loco, I gather Crewe are so shocked with the standard of work on 'Royal Scot' that they consider it needs to clock up 1000 miles of 'trouble free motoring' before they would let it loose on the main line.
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MTA
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I was informed today that 6100 gathered some fire damage the other day on its way to the West Somerset on its way from Crewe, so it might be slightly longer before it can clock up those miles.
Sorry spug, we are going rather  here...
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MFSteam
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I can understand the need to run up a few miles on the preserved lines. It is all the slow no gradient running, then gradients and higher speeds on the GCR and now back to 25mph at the mid hants. Are they still worried about the structural integrity of the boiler?
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8_10 Brass Cleaner
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| MFSteam wrote: | | . Are they still worried about the structural integrity of the boiler? |
My understanding is that they want to be sure that the way they now operate it is ok and reliable.
There was talk that the 'Nelson' boilers were troublesome historically
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8_10 Brass Cleaner
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Ah, I see you did a Vale of Rheldol Boiler (and Neil Thompson is stood in front of it!)
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spug103
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| MTA wrote: | I was informed today that 6100 gathered some fire damage the other day on its way to the West Somerset on its way from Crewe, so it might be slightly longer before it can clock up those miles.
Sorry spug, we are going rather here... |
nah this isnt , its still talk about the boiler
yes pridhams did do a vale of rheldol boiler although it was during my away period! so ive only seen photos of that one.
anyway the story of the lord nelson boiler....
as most will know the boiler was rebuilt at our works, after passing allthe relevant testing procedures as usual it departed on the back of a low loader to be reassembled elsewhere, by all accounts this was done well,
then there was a phone call....
the boiler is leaking,
so my boss took it on the chin and went along with another guy and sorted that out, there was a few leaky stays, they were re-caulked slightly, and tested,
then another call a little while later, the tubes are leaking...
so again the two of them trundle off and sort out the leaky tubes and a weep around the foundation ring, again inside the firebox,
then the phone rings again speaking of a pretty big failure,  crown stays the works,
my boss rushes up to site along with all the relevant bods,
it turns out the crown stays were not damaged luckily, and there was only minor leaks again re-caulking ect,
the nrm quite wisly then took the lord nelson back, and after investigations and reports ect, all this was, as already suggested, down poor firing by a crew inexperienced at this kind of engine, and as suggested this is mainly due to the copper firebox having a higher co-efficient of heat expasion to that of the steel outer putting extra stress on, things like stays and rivets as the inner grows quicker than the outer, especially when fired up too quickly,
the reasons they are now being more cautious is that after the blue peter, and lord nelson along with many others no doubt having problems / accidents due to in-experienced (in that particular loco) crews they are now trying to train them on that particular type of loco aswell as doing the heritage bit,
im sorry if i went on too long or was teaching people to suck eggs, but as i was asked, i thought i would tell you the inside story from down here.
im not trying to discredit any drivers/ firemen it is a dyingart, but eac engine has its own character as does an f1 car, a mini, or a landrover, and each need different styles of driving, i hope i havent upset anyone
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Spokesmann
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This is great stuff indeed, just where can a preserved engine stretch its legs to ensure all is well, in the UK? The GCR have a good stretch of double track - I remember taking a large prairie (4141) up and own it at more than 25mph!, or the WSR? Seems the only thing that can be done is real testing on the national network and just take a back up loco and plenty of spares/fitters or so it seems to me. Does there need to be better training for drivers and firemen, seeing that most of the BR trained ones are either too old or dead....
I suspect that there is always more than one way to fire a particular loco and then different 'ways' adopted by different regions. Its a bit like restoration really - more than one way of doing things and a multitude of different opinions and answers.
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SillyBilly
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When fully open the UKs longest preserved railway will be 40 miles long.
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